The Great Defender Debate...
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Hi Peter,
As I see it, the inherent technologies of the New Defender will make it the most advanced SUV of all time . No doubt about it. Nothing close.
If we only focus on the aspects of ruggedness, ‘utilitarianism, adaptability, versatility etc
for offroading, trailing, Overlanding, Farming, Military etc I see the ‘lineage’ as below:
Range Rover Classic ( 2-door )
Vogues
Disco 1.
Disco 2
Disco 2b ( ‘ New Defender ‘ )
Disco 3
Disco 4
Disco 5
Many on this forum will say yes but ...
‘ the high tech complexity’ inherent in the New Defender will preclude it from the traditional space and function of the old very utiliarian Defender .
That remains to be seen and established.
What we do know is that style and technology must inevitably move forward with time.
Legislation esp wrt Emissions, Economic Logic,
and the competitive pace of other manufacturers demand Land Rover advance
... and theyve always been trend setters
... and technology ice-breakers ...
As I see it, the inherent technologies of the New Defender will make it the most advanced SUV of all time . No doubt about it. Nothing close.
If we only focus on the aspects of ruggedness, ‘utilitarianism, adaptability, versatility etc
for offroading, trailing, Overlanding, Farming, Military etc I see the ‘lineage’ as below:
Range Rover Classic ( 2-door )
Vogues
Disco 1.
Disco 2
Disco 2b ( ‘ New Defender ‘ )
Disco 3
Disco 4
Disco 5
Many on this forum will say yes but ...
‘ the high tech complexity’ inherent in the New Defender will preclude it from the traditional space and function of the old very utiliarian Defender .
That remains to be seen and established.
What we do know is that style and technology must inevitably move forward with time.
Legislation esp wrt Emissions, Economic Logic,
and the competitive pace of other manufacturers demand Land Rover advance
... and theyve always been trend setters
... and technology ice-breakers ...
... Famous Fiver VoorLoper ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...
- Apocalypse
- Location: Cape Town
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- Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:40 pm
I think Estee has pretty much hit the nail on the head - the old Defender was an army truck dragged unwillingly into civilian use in an era where things (like tractor engines) were comparatively small and people travelled light. By todays standards a 1300kg payload is small. IT's quite interesting that something like my Power Wagon was considered a heavy duty Truck in 1948 when it was launched, yet a modern bakkie has better loading stats.
I can't really understand why anyone would want a replacement for the Defender in 2019. If you want a cramped seating position, a chair designed for a 20 year old Troopie, neck breaking transmission backlash, A clutch that a vegetarian can't operate, kidney failure - and yes - capability to go where you are no longer allowed to go with a reasonable load .... fix up an old defender or get a Land Cruiser.
but no one that wants all that good old Defender stuff wants to buy a new one anyway. 95% of the old defenders sold by Land Rover were sold to Soccer Moms and poseurs. The 'die hards' only bought them when the Soccer Mom's were done with them, and then bitched about the price of Land Rover parts.
Obviously, it's not much point LR trying to appease the die hards.
As I've said... As a Defender replacement, the new Defender is not a replacement for the old Defender. However... if you were (like me) REALLY disappointed with every new car LR has released since the D2, the new Defender looks like it might make you very happy.
I can't really understand why anyone would want a replacement for the Defender in 2019. If you want a cramped seating position, a chair designed for a 20 year old Troopie, neck breaking transmission backlash, A clutch that a vegetarian can't operate, kidney failure - and yes - capability to go where you are no longer allowed to go with a reasonable load .... fix up an old defender or get a Land Cruiser.
but no one that wants all that good old Defender stuff wants to buy a new one anyway. 95% of the old defenders sold by Land Rover were sold to Soccer Moms and poseurs. The 'die hards' only bought them when the Soccer Mom's were done with them, and then bitched about the price of Land Rover parts.
Obviously, it's not much point LR trying to appease the die hards.
As I've said... As a Defender replacement, the new Defender is not a replacement for the old Defender. However... if you were (like me) REALLY disappointed with every new car LR has released since the D2, the new Defender looks like it might make you very happy.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes
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Further to my previous note here is a diagram showing the lineages of Toyota models.
When Toyota aficionados start waffling on about this model or that model, I refer to this diagram if Im at all interested.
Maybe we need a Land Rover diagram like this to show there are different models of Land Rover deleveloped along different lines through the ages ...
When Toyota aficionados start waffling on about this model or that model, I refer to this diagram if Im at all interested.
Maybe we need a Land Rover diagram like this to show there are different models of Land Rover deleveloped along different lines through the ages ...
... Famous Fiver VoorLoper ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...
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Spot on.Apocalypse wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:57 amI think Estee has pretty much hit the nail on the head - the old Defender was an army truck dragged unwillingly into civilian use in an era where things (like tractor engines) were comparatively small and people travelled light. By todays standards a 1300kg payload is small. IT's quite interesting that something like my Power Wagon was considered a heavy duty Truck in 1948 when it was launched, yet a modern bakkie has better loading stats.
I can't really understand why anyone would want a replacement for the Defender in 2019. If you want a cramped seating position, a chair designed for a 20 year old Troopie, neck breaking transmission backlash, A clutch that a vegetarian can't operate, kidney failure - and yes - capability to go where you are no longer allowed to go with a reasonable load .... fix up an old defender or get a Land Cruiser.
but no one that wants all that good old Defender stuff wants to buy a new one anyway. 95% of the old defenders sold by Land Rover were sold to Soccer Moms and poseurs. The 'die hards' only bought them when the Soccer Mom's were done with them, and then bitched about the price of Land Rover parts.
Obviously, it's not much point LR trying to appease the die hards.
As I've said... As a Defender replacement, the new Defender is not a replacement for the old Defender. However... if you were (like me) REALLY disappointed with every new car LR has released since the D2, the new Defender looks like it might make you very happy.
Ranger Mildtrak
Scorpio Curry Cruiser
A tos-lookin', lunchbox, lipstick and powder puff carryin' home-built trailer
Scorpio Curry Cruiser
A tos-lookin', lunchbox, lipstick and powder puff carryin' home-built trailer
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The old Defenders were solid 4x4s. But it was (in my opinion) a kak vehicle to drive daily. It was purpose built as an overlander and it carried with it a sense of go-anywhere. In doing so, compromises were made to safety, stability and comfort.
The new Defender will be much easier to live with and still have the 4x4 capabilities required (and then some) - even if it is with the aid of some gizmos and and clever tech.
I like it. And if finances allow in future, might consider getting one.
The new Defender will be much easier to live with and still have the 4x4 capabilities required (and then some) - even if it is with the aid of some gizmos and and clever tech.
I like it. And if finances allow in future, might consider getting one.
Ranger Mildtrak
Scorpio Curry Cruiser
A tos-lookin', lunchbox, lipstick and powder puff carryin' home-built trailer
Scorpio Curry Cruiser
A tos-lookin', lunchbox, lipstick and powder puff carryin' home-built trailer
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... wrangler ...
pay RO.9m to buy
and then 12-15L/100km theron ...
before exorbitant yank extras/spares costs ...
... Famous Fiver VoorLoper ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...
- grips
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My prediction is they will sell like hot cake but not to the true offroad enthusiast. But hey these thing has still to proof itself. I will return to this thread 20 years from now then we will know for sure. Damn I will be 78 then
You will never find me without Stroh or a 4x4
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When Range Rover Classics were first made and sold, the new owners, perhaps buying beyond their means, probably avoided heavy offroad bumping, bending, scratching trails, but with time they were more widely used .
Same with Disco 1s & 2s, which are now common off the beaten track ...
D3s, D4s, D5s and the ‘New Defender’ will also increasingly venture to more extreme offroad trails exposure as time goes on...
Same with Disco 1s & 2s, which are now common off the beaten track ...
D3s, D4s, D5s and the ‘New Defender’ will also increasingly venture to more extreme offroad trails exposure as time goes on...
... Famous Fiver VoorLoper ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...
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- Location: Roodekrans Gauteng
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Having spent my formative years in the landed Anglo-Irish protestant gentry, the RRCs I was exposed to were used as utilitarian vehicles on working farms during the week and then for weekend shopping in the swish areas of Dublin even though they were washed, maybe, once a year and it was not uncommon for us to have moss growing around the window rubbers. Most had a faint odour of pig droppings and lots of pin striping on the left hand side, due to narrow Irish roads and high hedgerows of Tipperary. But then again, so too did the Astons.BushWacker wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:07 amWhen Range Rover Classics were first made and sold, the new owners, perhaps buying beyond their means, probably avoided heavy offroad bumping, bending, scratching trails, but with time they were more widely used .
Same with Disco 1s & 2s, which are now common off the beaten track ...
D3s, D4s, D5s and the ‘New Defender’ will also increasingly venture to more extreme offroad trails exposure as time goes on...
The only complaint I can recall, was the lack of a PTO off-take shaft. Local workshops, including tractor ones, carried out maintenance and repairs if not self-done
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... aagh ... the mink and manure belt ...
(...but I thought you were from the Southern end of the Emerald Isle ... Cork ? )
(...but I thought you were from the Southern end of the Emerald Isle ... Cork ? )
... Famous Fiver VoorLoper ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...
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.
... the Ruthless March of Technology ...
... the Ruthless March of Technology ...
... Famous Fiver VoorLoper ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...
- Apocalypse
- Location: Cape Town
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I'm expecting the following accessories to be selling like hot cakes to the die hards
1. Fake knee destroying tunnel mounted handbrake (it will work as well as a Classic Defender Handbrake)
2. Heavily spring loaded Clutch pedal accessory (non functional) for that authentic defender feeling at a traffic light.
3. Seat repositioning brackets to move seats so close to doors that you need to open the window to fit your arm in
4. Reepositioned B pillar with handy head height placed seatbelt guide for maximum cranial damage over cross axles
5. Oil leak drip tank - with sensor to identify newly laid paving and release a whole pint when identified
6. steering wobbler which slowly increases steering wobble over 60 000km until it's undrivable to replicate bush wear
7. Random gear selector for incredible vagueness in choice of gear
8. Prop shaft vibrator , kicks in whenever it's lifted.
9. Drivetrain backlash program, resulting in loud clunking noises and massive hesitation when pulling off...
and....
for the Disco 3/4/5 fans that wanted a TDV6, the Crankshaft destruction charge, designed to go off just out of warranty and when you bank account is just staring to look healthy...
1. Fake knee destroying tunnel mounted handbrake (it will work as well as a Classic Defender Handbrake)
2. Heavily spring loaded Clutch pedal accessory (non functional) for that authentic defender feeling at a traffic light.
3. Seat repositioning brackets to move seats so close to doors that you need to open the window to fit your arm in
4. Reepositioned B pillar with handy head height placed seatbelt guide for maximum cranial damage over cross axles
5. Oil leak drip tank - with sensor to identify newly laid paving and release a whole pint when identified
6. steering wobbler which slowly increases steering wobble over 60 000km until it's undrivable to replicate bush wear
7. Random gear selector for incredible vagueness in choice of gear
8. Prop shaft vibrator , kicks in whenever it's lifted.
9. Drivetrain backlash program, resulting in loud clunking noises and massive hesitation when pulling off...
and....
for the Disco 3/4/5 fans that wanted a TDV6, the Crankshaft destruction charge, designed to go off just out of warranty and when you bank account is just staring to look healthy...
Last edited by Apocalypse on Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes
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... yes ... well, I always have wondered why there wasnt an after-market gear-stick to console all those no-leg-room arm-out-window critics ...
... a well designed gear-stick would give them agoraphobia in one of the biggest cabs of all ...
... a well designed gear-stick would give them agoraphobia in one of the biggest cabs of all ...
... Famous Fiver VoorLoper ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...