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Toyota making sense about EV’s

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XJ Junkie
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Toyota making sense about EV’s

#1

Post by XJ Junkie »

This isn’t strictly a 4x4 topic but I came across this interesting article that will ultimately affect the 4WD market.

Toyota Has a Curious Justification for Not Selling Any EVs (Yet)
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a267 ... tric-cars/

Image

The automaker's lineup is conspicuously lacking in full battery-electric cars, and we found out why.

Toyota has long said it believes hybrids are a better bridge between internal-combustion vehicles and hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles.
Most competitors, however, have been been bullish on developing battery-electric vehicles.
A Toyota executive finally outlines the logic behind the company's EV decision making.

Toyota does not sell a single full-electric vehicle in the United States, not counting the hydrogen fuel-cell Mirai. It has indicated plans for electrics, which at last check would involve Mazda, but so far remains committed to plain old gasoline-electric hybrid cars, of which it offers plenty. The obvious question, then, with Tesla's expanding brand power and mainstream automakers racing to introduce EVs, is why Toyota isn't chasing them all into the fracas.

At the 2019 Geneva auto show, Gerald Killmann, Toyota's vice president of research and development for Europe, enlightened us as to why the automaker hasn't embraced EVs: battery production capacity. Now, Toyota isn't exactly limited in its battery production, although its capacity is significantly lower than that of, say, Tesla. It is how Toyota is allocating that production that matters. According to Killmann, Toyota is able to produce enough batteries for 28,000 electric vehicles each year—or for 1.5 million hybrid cars.

Per Toyota, selling 1.5 million hybrid cars reduces carbon emissions by a third more than selling 28,000 EVs. Put another way, the company is generating a more positive environmental impact by selling many times more gas-electric hybrid cars than it would by selling far fewer EVs (and therefore, far more fully gasoline- or diesel-powered vehicles), while also providing its customers more practical vehicles (because of no range or charging anxieties) at more affordable prices. There are only so many batteries to go around, after all.

Toyota also is one of the few automakers still using nickel-metal hydride battery (NiMH) chemistry in a large number of its electrified products (including some trim levels of the Prius hybrid), although the company also offers lithium-ion tech in some trim levels of the Prius and in the Prius Prime plug-in hybrid (pictured below). Not only are nickel-metal hydride cells cheaper than lithium-ion units, but Toyota has found that their susceptibility to memory-related degradation—essentially, partial discharge and recharge states, versus full battery drainage and refilling—relative to lithium-ion packs aren't as drastic as initially feared. Need proof? Look at how many big-city Toyota and Ford hybrid taxicabs running their original batteries have six digits on their odometers.

Killmann wouldn't go deeper than that fuzzy math (for example, details around those carbon emissions calculations), and it's difficult to say whether the logic was created to explain away Toyota's nonexistent EV offerings or if it has been Toyota's plan all along to take an unsexy, pragmatic approach to reducing new-vehicle carbon emissions globally. But Killmann has gone on record before stating his preference for distributing Toyota's finite battery capacity among a greater number of hybrid vehicles than a smaller number of full-electric models. Our discussion in Geneva marks the first time we've heard the logic behind that thinking articulated so clearly. So just know that because Toyota doesn't sell any EVs now doesn't mean it can't sell EVs or lacks the means. It is simply taking its usual careful, calculated approach to a long game. Toyota still sees hydrogen fuel-cell tech as the true future of mobility, and clearly hybrids are an important bridge to that future.


Last edited by XJ Junkie on Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Disclaimer: Uninformed, no research, just very strong opinions

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#2

Post by XJ Junkie »

Disclaimer: I didn’t start this thread. My account must have been hacked.
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#3

Post by Mad Manny »

Brilliant Thread Neil.

Many years ago, Jeremy Clarkson (who knows nothing technical about what goes on under a bonnet) said that Electric vehicles are NOT the future.
He said the Future is Hydrogen Fuel Cell.

The late Baroness Margaret Thatcher, while she was Prime Minister (Back before British Prime Ministers were just fumbling Brexiteers) agreed with Clarkson, she also said that the future is Hydrogen.
Thatcher studied Chemistry at college.

Toyota, the early leaders in mass post Internal Combustion motive power, obviously see it that way too....

EV's are a stop gap...
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#4

Post by Mad Manny »

I'm sure Doctor Derick (Quack) will be here soon to tell you what he thinks of Ex South Africans who build EV's...
"No one ever got stuck - in mid air!"

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#5

Post by Ginger »

I will chip on here.

EV's are shit. Klaar. 2 weeks ago I was asked some questions, and we had some discussions, and then I started getting acquainted with whats up.

All the patents for Tesla's has been opened, you can download it. I have learned that the single reason for Tesla' s existence is Toyota. They made one vehicle, the EV rav4, where they got Tesla to make them some bits. The parts numbers and name is printed on the parts. One a battery with all the cooling etc. required to use in an EV, and the charger. The charger and battery you can still buy over the counter at Toyota in USA. But if you have a failed battery at Tesla, or charger, you have a very big expensive paper weight, as you can not purchase any high voltage parts without the vehicle. You can also not buy the inverter, or the motor. And they are NOT waterproof. So anyone fapping at night over the thought of owning a Tesla one day, get an account on pornhub. Its a better prospect.

Battery tech...

Nimh does have big capacity, 4500mah easy out of an 18650sized battery. But its only 1.2V, leaving you with 5.4watt hour. Reason for the capacity, it can be depleted to 0.1V and it will just charge up again. But its not a usable voltage... The lowest usable voltage per battery will be 0.7V, effectively less than halve its rated capacity. But its a much more stable chemical, and charge balancing is really not an issue, as long as you charge them to the same level, and the internal resistance is the same, you can basically connect it in series and use it, when charging you only monitor 3 things, mainly temperature. Internal resistance is big in nimh, and the only way to get banging torque out of your motor is to add massive supercapacitors, or you can give up trying. The charge efficiency is also only around 50%, and you can get around 4.5A per battery.

Li-ion.... Thats a bit of a monster really. When not properly charged it will vent in flames, going into 0ohm, and set the next one on fire in a cascade. You have to actively cool the battery while charging, or using it in high current applications, accept in the snowy places where you have to heat it up. If its really cold, the 'mericans charging from their 110/120V sockets are unable to get a full charge in 5 days due to the heater drawing as much as what a wall socket can supply.

Also, each battery has to be balanced all the time. If you overcharge one battery, flames...

But, an 18650 battery used in EV's are normally 3000mah. (Propitiatory 21700 in the 100kw Tesla pack) It sound like a little, but the reality is that liion batteries are 3.6-3.7V. that gives you 11.1watt hour.

The charge efficiency is 98%, and you "safely" can get about 40A out of each battery, and theoretically you don't need supercaps (you do, drawing high currents for longish periods make them flame up)

Thats the 2 batteries covered.

Now, charging a li-on battery, even though its 3.6/3.7V, you charge them at 4.2V.

And a Tesla has 7104 cells in series...

That gives you 415VDC from a fully charged pack. If I was a medic that has to help you out after you crashed your P100D from too much ludicrous mode, get yourself out. I'll watch from under the tree.
Last edited by Ginger on Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#6

Post by XJ Junkie »

One obvious flaw in Toyota’s strategy is the fact that demand no longer drives what we would like to drive. It’s dictated purely by legislation, so it’s more a question of what manufacturers will be allowed to build. In fact, it’s already the case.

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#7

Post by Quack »

Toyota’s philosophy for once make sense

Lets look at a few key facts, based on simple scientific observation;

The average usable electric car needs to deliver about 100kw, now I take you back to your matric science class and some debate high voltage batteries and others are more in favour of low voltage batteries; but let’s for the sake of an argument use 500V as an arbitrary value!

P=VI

100 000 W = 500 V x 2000 A

And to make this more interesting, the battery can deliver a much higher DC spike than the nominal output we expect of it!

The argument gets better, because we want to charge these buggers at double quick rate and without even considering losses between the transition from AC to DC, you will understand that you need a 10 000A power supply to charge the battery as some of the manufacturers claimed in half an hour!

Now I’m no electrician! But I’ve just thrown some serious figures around, the kind of figures that should install fear in you if you have half a brain cell!

For the record 100mA is considered lethal

I hear you, this is the future! They will improve the technology! Are we going to re write the laws of physics? (To be read in the most sarcastic voice you can conjure!)

Which brings me to my next lesson;

Chemistry 101

We have all heard about Lithium ions and we accept it’s greatness! But what ion are we referring to? Chemistry dictates that you need a salt, in an acidic environment for a battery to do what a battery does!

Has anyone ever bothered to find out what is this elusive ion that binds with lithium to make it into a battery?

The answer is fluoride, the stuff that makes your teeth white, as kids the old regime added it to our water so we all grew up with strong teeth, a practise which was stopped for very good reason!

For fluoride in an acidic environment creates the most noxious substance known to mankind; hydrofluoric acid!

Hydrofluoric acid is the stuff of nightmares and alchemy, it can dissolve glass! 0.2g is enough to kill you stone dead right there and you don’t have to ingest it, you don’t even have to inhale it! You simply have to walk past it! Poof dead

You would be happy to know that one electric car will on average produce 20 kg of this wondrous stuff if by accident it is set alight!

Enough for all the village idiots, you don’t even have to cue!

Manny asked me to comment and I felt obliged to deliver, contrary to popular belief, I do sincerely believe electric cars to be the answer!

The question of course how to save the planet from over population

I can bore you with more facts and fallacies, but for now these are the two most compelling!


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#8

Post by XJ Junkie »

Quack wrote: contrary to popular belief, I do sincerely believe electric cars to be the answer!

The question of course how to save the planet from over populationImage
Thanks Quack & Ginger Minger. Those post are probably the most informative posts I’ve read on the subject.

But Quack just to clarify, you believe EVs are the answer?
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#9

Post by Quack »

Yes Junky, EV’s will get rid of the bunny huggers faster than they can propegate

I sometimes aim too high with my sarcasm


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#10

Post by grips »

The very humble Doctor Quack sent engineers and scientists hiding in fox and rabbit holes on a conference in Europa with the questions he asked in the post above.
Thanks Quack for saving the internal combustion engine. :lol:
You will never find me without Stroh or a 4x4 :D

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#11

Post by RynoB »

Thanks Quack, I could never imagine you being sarcastic...… ever
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#12

Post by XJ Junkie »

Quack, I just used your info to waterboard a greeny. It was fun.
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#13

Post by Ginger »

We also need to add, since we on the chemicals 101 track, that the cathode of liion batteries are made of Nickel, Cobalt, and Aluminium (LiNiCoAlO2)

Cobalt is quite beneficial to human health in very small quantities, its part of vitamin b12. But in larger quantities, its quite nasty!!!


- Vomiting and nausea
- Vision problems
- Heart problems
- Thyroid damage

Health effects may also be caused by radiation of radioactive cobalt isotopes. This can cause sterility, hair loss, vomiting, bleeding, diarrhoea, coma and even death.


Basically, we really need cobalt, but really small amounts. Currently cobalt is mostly around 5% in the cathodes. Its something that is naturally found in the enviroment, and should not be a concern. But if we have 7104 cathodes all dumped on one place in the natural enviroment, that site becomes a real concern...
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#14

Post by Quack »

So last night I believe the first E racing bike.....



went up in flames......



taking the whole paddock with it.......



jeopardised the whole series!ImageImage



http://www.fim-live.com/en/article/e-pa ... ing-tests/


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#15

Post by Ginger »

Quack wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:07 pm
So last night I believe the first E racing bike.....



went up in flames......



taking the whole paddock with it.......



jeopardised the whole series!ImageImage



http://www.fim-live.com/en/article/e-pa ... ing-tests/


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At least you can sort of make a plan to unmount the thing in less than 7 seconds if it catches fire... Fall...

In a car, the doors are locked, and your safety belt is in, and you have 7 seconds to get youself the Fork out of there before dying from inhaling hydrofloric acid and getting your lungs desolved.... And it takes the rear doors of the Tesla model X about 15 seconds to open...

Nah, No EV for me...

But I am certain we will see more an more hybrids coming into market...
The woman in my life knows what I spent on my JKU.
So because of that, I know exactly how much I spent on it.

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