OGATO are they reviving the NOW & NORS

[Mad Manny]

Correct Paul, Hunter26, who started that Thread, was the one who alerted me to Bernie Williams' FB post.
I then started this Thread & he started that one.
I also tagged Dirk Erasmus, who runs that Forum, on the the FB post on Bernie's page.

As others have said, I really don't think we have anything to worry about.
OGATO doesn't seem to have the organisation, backing, members or following required to effect change.

[Mad Manny]

I am a firm believer in Associations & Representative bodies.
The Americans use them to great effect.
The Oscars are brought to you by such a body.
In fact, in the US, the Porn industry even has a regulatory body.

However, in many cases, particularly here in SA, these bodies are just a means to extort money from members.
They do nothing for members or those who use the products of that industry.

In my industry, construction, we have the Master Builder's Association & the National Home Builder's Registration Councel (MBA & NHBRC) - both ineffectual.
Potential client's often ask me if I belong to either - when I say no they are hesitant to use my services.
I then point out that, if a contractor belonging to those organisations stuffs up - that body will protect the member, not the client.
Furthermore, I have, on many occasions attended to poor work by their members.
Their members have NEVER had to make good my work.

Nonetheless, a good governing body is invaluable - in my opinion.

The members of the 4x4 Action Group are (like members of other good 4x4 clubs, like LROC or 4WDCSA) are far superior Off Road Users that the drunken mobs from places like Toyotaholics.

There are many venues that have closed their doors to 4x4'ers because of the behaviour of such uncouth, unregulated scum.
Asa result, we can no longer use these lovely venues.

In my next post, I'll outline what I'd like to see...

[Mad Manny]

Ideally, in a perfect world, I believe we should have:

A body that the Off Road trainers can belong to. A body so respected that you are confident that using a 4x4 Trainer who belongs to them, you know you are going to get the correct training, well presented, to a set standard & receive a certificate that is worth something.

A body for the Trail owners, so you know the trail will have decent facilities, is safe, offers value for money.
Go to Beraka near Parys now, it's in a horrific state & large sections of the trail are now closed off.
No maintenance is being done, it is overgrown & in disrepair.

A body for the Tour operators, like OGATO, but well run, with a website. A body so respected that you know that if you use them you are going to have a great, well organised trip & not be scammed by a Taun Beuster type.

A body, like the now defunct AAWDC, that the 4x4 Clubs can belong to. But unlike the AAWDC, one that doesn't lose its way & start some questionable programes.

Decent 4WD Clubs, so that you know that the members of those Clubs are not 'Holics' but the exact opposite.

The Trail Owners, Tour Guide Operators & Trainers should charge a lower rate for members of recognised Clubs.
In fact, people who do NOT belong to Clubs should not be allowed to self-drive a 4x4 route unless guided or accompanied by an approved 4x4 Club member/Trainer/Guide.

On our Ladies Training day we went to De Wildt, the Holics infested the place that day. The low-classed, idiotic, inconsiderate, mindless, drunken behaviour of the Holics was, frankly, disgusting.
As a result, I will NEVER go to De Wildt again. Alex cooked his goose that day, in my opinion.

Unfortunately, this is all "in a perfect world" stuff. These bodies will eventually start trying to line their own pockets and lose their way.

But all these bodies should, ideally, only serve one goal: to make participation in 4x4/Overland/Off Road activities safe, respected & respectful and enjoyable for all.

[Shane]

The problem with these "bodies" is that they eventually become too prescriptive and those managing them often have huge ego's....

I have seen this both in the pig industry as well as our local fire association.

As soon as people get a little power they start losing the plot.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

[jakeslouw]

The problem with this body in particular is the controlling status of industry role players that will skew the rules in their favour.
Akin to Ferrari running F1.

[Ricof4e]

If these okes don't derive any authority from statute, and by implication membership is voluntarily, then what's the fuss about? They can't enforce membership on a club, nor can they regulate what occurs on private property.

I would rather start investigating the real motive behind this.

[Mad Manny]

Ricof4e, you are right, but those of us who fought against the NOW & NORS proposals are a bit trigger happy.
The 4x4 Action Group was originally formed purely to fight against this.
The NOW & NORS led to the decline of the AAWDC.

So at this stage there is nothing to worry about.

It's a FaceBook based informal grouping with no mandate, almost no members, no mission statement, no clear goals & unclear purpose.
Seems like they are just trying to get Tour Guides to pay them for training.

The main guys are Bernie - a Pub Singer, Trainer, Tour Guide who is active in the 4x4 industry
Malcolm Van Collier - I know him from the 4x4Community Forum.
Tony (haven't looked into who he is).
None of them are on this Forum.

So we can certainly 'park' this Thread.

But we need to keep an eye out if they ever start getting their act together.

[jakeslouw]

Malcolm van Coller is also apparently a tour guide, hence his interest.

[Ricof4e]

Gents, I have done some digging on the development of this issue (as from 2004 onwards).

What you must take cognizance of from the outset, there is nothing stopping the Minister of Environment to publish regulations similar to what they did for the coastal areas. All they need to prove is that the particular trail is environmentally sensitive and requires protection.

Here's an idea (published on 05 June 2022) of how much inland area they wish to conserve by 2025: https://www.dffe.gov.za/mediarelease/creecy_wed2022

My professional opinion: julle poep teen donderweer - the wheels have been set in motion.

This however does not mean that you can't question the validity of OGATO as an organisation itself nor its ability to function in hand with the ministry to regulate off-road use inland - that in itself is a pipe dream. I would hammer OGATO on that basis.

[Ricof4e]

Bear in mind that, as far as I could establish, OGATO is a voluntary association and can only regulate those that voluntarily holds membership.

[jakeslouw]

Bear in mind that, as far as I could establish, OGATO is a voluntary association and can only regulate those that voluntarily holds membership.

I agree that there should be a voluntary association with easy and cheap methods of compliance, without significant red tape.

However, in the case of OGATO and the rest, "Voluntary" is a term that also includes bullying and coercion. That is why the 4x4AG was formed: back then there was a LOT of pressure being brought to bear by industry role-players that should NOT have been involved directly (Government, NAAMSA, etc) which would have meant the "association" would have been a Charlie Foxtrot circle-jerk of people pushing their own interests for profit or political gain. It had nothing to do with the environment, it had everything to do with control.

I'm with Manny here: we need to keep an eagle eye on this initiative. What we DON'T need is 4x4 trails closing due to onerous costs, red tape, and petty bureaucracy. Because that's what the ruling party like, and it's what certain role-players want.

I'm all for safety: publish the rules, provide people with an easy way of being certified/verified, and have a central register. Have a proper star rating.
But don't make it difficult, expensive or onerous. Because then land owners will shut the trails and routes and we will lose out, not the controllers.

The original premise was an expensive inspection regime with mandatory "guides" that had to attend expensive "classes" and complete excessive exams. Trails were MANDATED to have a certified guide. Trails were mandated to pass inspections. The trail requirements added significant costs to upkeep and outlay. This isn't the solution.

[Ricof4e]

Jakes, I understand.

But as sure as the sun comes up tomorrow, at some stage the Ministry will fetter with inland 4x4 trails etc.

No matter what, when something like this happens, there is always someone seeing an opportunity to make some money and trying to get a foot in the door to do so. In my experience, OGATO must have started lobbying this notion of training and certification for quite some time and unbeknownst to all of you, regardless of their reputation or standing. They would not have sent out the notification if they did not feel they had sufficient backing already.

Perhaps a pro-active approach is required, but it would not serve much purpose discussing it openly on a public platform. Needless to say I would consider engaging the Ministry directly to try and get a handle on this, and only then make determinations about OGATO's role and motives.

[iandvl]

Bernie mentions that there are proposed regulations coming, but also that a national body for "ALL ADVENTURE ACTIVITIES" to be formed. The video he posted on FB also mentioned "Our first task is to re-establish working relationships with all affected parties in the off-road sector through a strengthened communication network".

Apart from a random post on FaceBook, I've not seen any "strengthened" communication network. That bothers me a little.

By definition "ALL ADVENTURE ACTIVITIES" as well as "all affected parties in the off-road sector" would actually be relevant to anybody who likes touring off-road.

My big issue with this is that they're flogging a horse that is already dead - something we saw with the entire NORS/NOW saga. And potentially, drawing attention may result in some idiot at the department of tourism or similar having a brain-shart. It would be a dream for some folk at gov.za. They would love to be able to regulate everything they can. And I can also see them lusting after yet another potential revenue stream. And I worry about that.

[Ricof4e]

Ian, IMHO regulation is inevitable, despite what motive the South African Government may have.

The gripe should be with OGATO itself:

1) As I understand, this association ceased to exist a while ago. As the 4x4 AG was a member, clarity must be obtained whether the OGATO of today is still the OGATO of yesterday and if they have a new constitution to back the revival.

2) If the 4x4 AG was a member of OGATO, that would mean someone from the 4x4 AG must have signed the constitution or applied for membership. Normally membership would cease the moment OGATO ceased to exist and membership may only be attained through the adoption of a new constitution.

3) I suspect it is on the aforementioned premise that OGATO proclaims to be "a representative for the Off-Road Sector of Adventure Tourism (sic)" - whether they have the constitutional backing to flaunt that statement will be determined by the above.

My understanding is that OGATO wants membership so that it can put forth proposals and suggestions to the Ministry on your behalf - which is a superfluous endeavour if regulations are already in the pipeline as they have indicated.

But if there is still an opportunity to voice concerns, there is nothing stopping the 4x4 AG to do so directly and independently (from OGATO).

[Mad Manny]

One of the 3 people involved with OGATO is MV Coller.
Here is his reply (shamelessly stolen from the Patrol 4x4 Forum):

This does not affect the run of the mill 4x4 driver.

It is an umbrella organisation to look after the interests of essentially Professional 4x4 Guides and 4x4 track owners. We are trying to get them all together so we can speak with one voice.

It is a legal requirement for all 4x4 Tourist Guides to be qualified and registered. Countrywide this will soon be policed properly (so the Dept of Tourism says), it is currently policed in the Western Cape. Heavy fines will be issued to unregistered (Illegal) guides, and repeat offenders could have their vehicles confiscated. A Guide taking organised tours or tours for remuneration, HAS TO BE fully qualified, have a SAQA Qualification and be registered with the National or Provincial Tourism Board depending if they are taking tours as National or Site/Provincial guides.

They must wear their name badge and carry their valid Tourist Guide Card at all times on any tour they are guiding.

One particular unscrupulous operator has in the recent past taken deposits and full payments for 4x4 Safaris and then "disappeared" with the money. This has caused untold harm to the 4x4 Tourism industry, and this organisation is to try and stamp this out. Basically, if you want to join a 4x4 safari, find out if that person is a member of OGATO. OGATO is trying to SET UP AN ORGANISATION OF HONEST PROFESSIONAL 4X4 ADVENTURE Tourist Guides that the organisation will vouch for.

I am a past Chairman of OGATO


Malcolm van Coller

SIMBA 4X4 TOURS AND SAFARIS

Qualified and Registered DEAT National Tourist Guide (GP 2312)
Member of Off-Road Guides and Tour Operators Association of South Africa (OGATO)
Member of Institute of Professional Tourist Guides of South Africa (IPTGSA)
Professional 4x4 Trail & Overland Guide | Category: Adventure Guide
Certified Competent Driver for driving in Eco sensitive areas
SA Accredited Outcomes Based Training Assessor
Certified Kingdom of Eswatini (Swaziland) Tourist Guide


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