Suspension Design - pros/cons and customisation

[david bfreesani]

Grips yes, your info is valuable and very pertinent, but unfortunately it was too late by the time I had my front end done the first time. Copying tge old Safari angles also went south on me by the time I had to turn my springs around when the shackles would not fit under the car. Then the experimenting with the coils over leaf springs just made things totally awful. By the time I was done, Castor was .5deg too much compared to OEM, but handling was still a disaster.

The US guys then started telling me that a rig that high on 33s or 35s needs more Castor. And the recommendation was around 7deg. We know where that has left me.

I unfortunately have not got proffesional engineering tools, and my angle finder is limited to a phone app, or my plastic dial angle finder that gives me different readings every time. I have to tap the thing for it to settle. Lots of room for error, and I spend a lot of time trying to get things right.

The second TC has been just as much of a challenge. No gearbox jack. Push the thing up one of ramps and balance it on nuts and bits of steel to get it into place. Every time a neighbour farts, the thing moves. Sometimes without me realising it, and things get built accordingly. I have had a case where I attempted to put the thing back the next day, and it just would not fit after all the welding was done on the car.

Ok, so a whole bunch of excuses why it turned into the mess it is now. Right now I need to get the TC sorted so I can at least pin down the rear drive. Before I go onto trying to fix suspension in the front, I need to investigate shaving the sump to score some space to the diff so I can see what my new ride hieght is going to be. Only then can we relook the suspension setup. Maybe a simple SUA in the front will work, but new shorter springs are on the cards, or a 3 link.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[XJ Junkie]

You can’t convert for R15k.

The expensive stuff has been purchased and donated and already installed. Its now just the fixing/attachment details that need to be sorted out.

I am not including nice new tyres and fancy shocks as I have enough of these laying around that can be made to work for now.

My most expensive things to do is extend one propshaft by 120mm for drive to the front diff. DOM pipe and heims, or new springs, depending on the way forward I decide on.

Small niggles like getting a gear lever to connect to the second TC is not even on the list of expenses. That we build from scraps as we go.

The critical and time consuming things is whats been frustrating everybody. I had to cut out two of the three main chassis crossmembers to make things fit. That had to be designed and replaced around the second TC and be strong enough to take over the job of the Nissan members I cut out to make sure the chassis integrity was maintained.

I think I , along with one or two of my engineering clients who have looked at whats been done, have over engineered this with 5mm steel members and braces. After the skid plate has been added, that thing will be way stronger than it was when it came out the factory. I'm adding a lot of weight, but strength is of more importance to me.

Still very much work in progress with a few pieces of steel, both from side to side and from front to back that still needs to go in.

I think the only concern you could really have with this "death trap", is the handling issues, and this is what I am trying to sort out with this thread. I was hoping we had more technically, and possibly hardcore 4x4ers here, than the bunch of keyboard worriers on the other side, that can help with this project.

Like I said, that is a death trap & cant be done for less than R15k. It shouldn’t be on the road.

[Hedgehog]

I blame all of this on jelo

[david bfreesani]

Like I said, that is a death trap & cant be done for less than R15k. It shouldn’t be on the road.

I don't get your comment. Replace standard 2mm crossmembers with more than double 4mm members, and you say it's now a death trap. I have actually consulted an engineer to find out what I need to do as to the forces after a doubling in gear ratio and torque onto that TC, and what happens after a second doubling. There are some nifty forces at play, hence the added gauge material that we are using. I could have gone with straight box tube, but the fact that these members also need to act as skid plates, it made sense to just go with 4mm angle that would not dent like 3mm box, and gives me more space to work with on the TC mounts on top of the frame. I looked at pipe, but that also gets in the way of the mounts, and after you do cut outs, you mess with the integrity of the pipe that you have to strengthen in other ways.

So I would like to hear YOUR suggestions as to how to fix this "death trap". You keep criticizing, but don't help with anything constructive besides drive it off a cliff. We are not all in your position to just go out and buy new toys.

[david bfreesani]

I blame all of this on jelo

LOL, IFS is a death trap for anything more than a platkar. Jelo and I have been talking about this conversion from 2006 when I started having problems, just after I purchased the car. It was the progression that you need to go through if you want to do any remotely serious 4x4'ing. Look at the guys from 4wd action in Australia how they break that Isuzu and other IFS vehicles. Too many people teasing themselves that they have a real 4x4 on IFS....Shame.

Nothing wrong with Jelo's idea (and me agreeing with it). It was just that the execution changed because of my anal ways. The "normal" way these conversions get done, is you slap a Jeep diff under the front, and it's job done. Well kinda, till you realise you need bigger wheels, then diff gearing needs to be done, and in many cases, reduction gearing for the TC. In the US that is relativity cheap and over the counter type kit. Not so in ZA.

But my real reason for not going the Dana diff rout, was I saw them break those diffs one after the other in videos I was watching. Then I looked the Aussie guys, who were doing similar, and sometimes more hectic stuff, and not able to break the Patrol diffs. Even cruiser diffs did not seem to be as robust. The other PITA, is the wheel adapters that you need to run to make a Jeep 5 stud axle take a 6 stud Nissan wheel. This on it's own is as bad as running wheel spacers, which I hate due to possible failure. So my build started off with sourcing the tougher'er diffs and drivetrain I could find. It solved one of my gearing problems with bigger rubber, with the second TC. But that second TC also opens up a whole new set of challenges most people said I should just rather walk away from. I have to relocate fuel tank and reroute the exhaust.

BUT FOR NOW, and this thread, we are discussing the front end suspension options. May not look like it, but I have already picked up some good advise from this thread (for the most part). So thanks to the contributions guys

[grips]

The US guys then started telling me that a rig that high on 33s or 35s needs more Castor. And the recommendation was around 7deg. We know where that has left me.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I have told you to never listen to the guys on forums.

As for diff`s yes I have to agree Dana`s are not as strong as the Yanks promote them to be. To date I have snapped a front side shaft, stripped the pinion on the Dana 44 high pinion Heavy duty. Side shaft on Dana 60 rear snapped.

Patrol diff`s are strong but I am not sure if the Safari C200 with its little 8 inch crown is stronger than a Dana 44 or Cruiser font diff.
I can show you bits and pieces from the G60`s C200.

It also is easier to do a SFA conversion with a high pinion diff. You just have so much better prop shaft angles.
We plan to install a set of Cruiser diffs under the Little G60 V8 Patrol as the Cruiser diff`s come with lockers. Let me put it this way I will only supervise. I am sort of finished with conversions at this stage. Only giving my two sons a helping hand when needed. When I have time complete the 408 stroker that I am busy building.

The only thing that will motivate me again is when I bump into a Shorty Land Cruiser. Would like a Shorty with LS Chevy V8.

[david bfreesani]

Grips, Yes, I am a bit worried about that C200 front end, but it can only be better than the R180 (I think), that used to be in there with the IFS. I have this fear that the way overkill rear end is going to transfer too much to the much weaker front diff. Strange that Nissan put it's strongest and weakest diffs as a pair on a vehicle. The H260 is probably in line with the Dana60, some guys saying Dana80, but I doubt it. The Aussies have a very nice H233 front and rear available for around $600Aussie each, with lockers, and for a few $$ more, you can even get them with portals. If that is still available the day the bank looks better, I will look at that option. The H260 is turning out to be very big. I actually have lost 30mm ground clearance on the pumpkin, even after going from 29" to 33" tires. So 35's will get me within 5mm of the clearance I had with the C200 rear end that was originally in there. I see why some guys are doing a pumpkin cut off the bottom of that diff. I believe they score around 25mm-30mm.

Anyhow, I got the old Safari for R8k in those days, with the best diff ratio I could have hoped for without a regear. Even had two propshafts that still had there stickers on after a refurb, although I think that came from Reenens store. So we work with what we have.

[Reenen]

[david bfreesani]

David, jy sê jy haat spacers en bang vir breek. Vir interessantheid. Watter deel is jy bang breek, en watter dikte spacers begin jou pla?

Nog nooit self daarmee gespeel nie. Sien net manne wat probleme gehad het met die spacers wat los gekom het van die hub. Ek sou nie geworry het met spacers behalwe vir die 5 na 6 lug conversion wat jy moet doen om Dana te loop met nissan rims.

Die klein spacers wat die standaard studs gebruik is seker nog ok, ek hou net nie van die ekstra point of failure wat jy moontlik kan skep nie.

Maar dis net ek, en my persoonlikke voorkeur.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Reenen]

[david bfreesani]

Ek neem aan die Toyota TC is regs drop voor? Hy het seker selle lift as el moes doen. Weet nie of ek 130mm lift blocks ney sou U bolt aan doe chassis nie. Dis op a redelikke hoek waar die chassis op gaan in die wheel arch. En reg onder een van die body mounts. Op drywer kant moet jy om/oor al die kabels en briek pyp werk ook. Dam ook die 130mm spacer vir die shackle mount.

Hoe vêr steek sy voor shackle mounts uit en hoe laag kom hulle? Toe ek myne uit werk moes daai voorste chassis member so 200 uit bou na voor en so 150mm drop. Tensy jy baie lang schackles gebruik het.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Reenen]

[david bfreesani]

Daai blad vere voor is korter as myne, en sy shackle hoek is nie veel beter as myne. Hy het wel baie gewen met goe vêr die schackle mounts voor uit steek. Sal graag ook wil sien hoeveel spasie hy het verby die sump, want dit lyk nie as if hy die lift het van myne nie. En sy wheelbase lyk ook korter as myne. Watse size wiele het hy daar.

Dis baie mooi gedoen.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[david bfreesani]

Weer gekyk op die pics. Sy spring mounts lyk wel laer as myne, en hy is SUA. Weet nie waar steek hy daai diff onder die motor weg nie. Ek het totaal ven 80mn tussen diff en sump, en dis na ek as 60mm voorentoe geskyf om die kleiner gedeelte van die diff onder die sump in te pas, anders sou ek nog omtrent 30mm se lift moes gee.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Reenen]