Suspension Design - pros/cons and customisation

[Reenen]

[david bfreesani]

Td27 met sy box pas daarin soos n handskoen, ek het dit gedoen met een van myne.

En hoe dra die standaard Safari vere die TD27 motor? Toe ek myne begin het, het jy net ondervinding gehad met die Toyota suspensie wat jy moes help met a stel coilovers om die motor te dra. So ek wil graag weet wat die Safari suspensie maak.

I appreciate the effort to convert me to a vehicle nearly 15 years older than the one I have, where I get to forego things like leather seats, central locking, electric windows and aircon I presently have. I'm not going to even try and explain my non existent finances, but I doubt you will find many people to whom that makes financial sense.

Can we get this thread back on topic please. I've had enough of this attitude on the "other" forum, which got me chatting to guys in Australia and the US. Over and over, the easier solution that has come up on those forums, is a straight multi link or even long arm swop. Ok, so I know they have an amazing selection of kit over the counter that makes things much easier. Hell, there is actually a kit for the D21 Pathfinder available in the US that is virtually bolt on. But outside my budget at just shy of $3k before I have chosen my shocks.

Working my budget out here, I can probly get away with around R3k if I can use my stock of coils and shocks already laying in my garage. So I will investigate the cost of making new springs for the front. Maybe I can just move the existing front springs to the rear to replace those after axle wrapping them. I have to look at tramp bars for the axles anyways as these leafs suffer already. How do you fix anti squat/dive issues on a leaf sprung vehicle?

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[Reenen]

[david bfreesani]

Wow, stop die lorrie. Post #29 het jy gevra wat/waar kry mens iets vir R10-15000...

Ek het jou voorbeelde gewys. I’m Outa here

Dit was vraag aan XJ. Ek weet jy skop karre onder elke bos uit teen pryse wat ons net van kan droom.

Feit bly staan, sal dit regtig wys wees om die Sani te scrap en te gaan vir a ouer kar wat nog minder geskik is vir my gebruik.

Sorry as ek jou in die gesig gevat het. Ek probeer dinge reg maak, maar word aangeraai om die kar te scrap want dis a gevaar vir ander lede op die forum se families op die pad. .

Miskien is dit eerder ek wat moet rokkof. Dis nou die tweede forum waar ek die selle "vibe" kry.

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[ThysleRoux]

Touchy-touchy !!!!!!! Julle moenie so vinnig keyboard draws maak nie ................................... Neil het begin stir op sy gewone manier, maar ons weet hy is 'n Duster man, so dit tel nie regtig nie

[Wooky]

XJ might well be stirring the pot so to speak but he does make a very valid point....

Modifying a vehicle like you are doing is not an exact science. Most of the time you end up doing things over and over as you slowly move towards where you want to get the vehicle. It's a learning curve all the way and you are both R&D and manufacturing departments.
This takes time and money in bucket loads with the distinct possibility of never getting it "just right".

In your current financial position you might well have the time but not the money to go through the R&D to make it work. The safest solution to get you in a running and usable vehicle is to buy one. Not something you might appreciate hearing but a valid point non the less.


If you are adamant you want to get this right ( a line of thinking I can quite understand ) then here is another option.
How about a hybrid system?

You will need to sort out that shackle angle with some shorter springs. Take some measurements and look at the local scrap yards for a set of leaf springs that will suit the length. You will only be needing the two (or possibly 3) main leaves out of each pack. Ditch the rest for now.
Fit the spring packs. They will be to weak to support the vehicle but will only be used to locate the axle as a very simple radius arm system.
Fit coil springs over the top of the leaf packs. The coils will carry the weight.

You will possibly need to fit a panhard rod to control the lateral movement but that should be a simple matter.
A traction bar to control axle wrapping / wheel hop could also be needed.

[Wooky]

Something like this....

[XJ Junkie]

You can’t convert for R15k.

[david bfreesani]

In your current financial position you might well have the time but not the money to go through the R&D to make it work. The safest solution to get you in a running and usable vehicle is to buy one. Not something you might appreciate hearing but a valid point non the less.

In my current financial position I manage to push maybe R100 to R300 a month to the project (if I'm lucky). Or I get to score some scrap metal somewhere that sees me doing a thing or two. So to take out 10k or 15k is just not happening.

If you are adamant you want to get this right ( a line of thinking I can quite understand ) then here is another option.
How about a hybrid system?

You will need to sort out that shackle angle with some shorter springs. Take some measurements and look at the local scrap yards for a set of leaf springs that will suit the length. You will only be needing the two (or possibly 3) main leaves out of each pack. Ditch the rest for now.
Fit the spring packs. They will be to weak to support the vehicle but will only be used to locate the axle as a very simple radius arm system.
Fit coil springs over the top of the leaf packs. The coils will carry the weight.

You will possibly need to fit a panhard rod to control the lateral movement but that should be a simple matter.
A traction bar to control axle wrapping / wheel hop could also be needed.

We have actually been there, but never published that mess on any of the build threads, as far as I can remember. The springs seem to fight eachother even more without all those checks of panhard bar and axle wrap bar.

I played with various numbers of blades in the pack to try and get sideways stability. Obviously the carry capability changed as we did this inducing other problems as the coil springs could not adjust to change ride height as we progressed.

Now this is where I did math, and when you work out the cost to add all those things you mention to the equation to make leafs work, you will see that all you are missing to make all those things just be a full on three link, is the two lower control arms. DOM pipe and 2 Heims extra is under R1k. Spring works I just called to get a ballpark quote, as I did not get a chance to take measurements last night, is more than double that for a set of leafs. Only other consideration is the new placement of the lower control arm mounts on the chassis. bashing the figures around in a 3 link calculator I have got options to fit those mounts in a few places. Options are there for a standard setup right through to a long arm setup both front and rear.
People say I over think everything, but this is the number crunching I have been doing, and I keep falling off the leaf spring bus, and ending up with 3 link and coils. Besides that its always where you really want to progress to with a vehicle like this, financially, it is a big short cut to just go straight there, and stop horsing around with a setup that has been problematic for 4 years now for me and the Sani.

As soon as I have the TC in place, I can get the drivetrain finished fairly quickly. And if the 3 link is at all an option, I need to work out where I am going to put fuel tanks, and route the exhaust around all the components. But this exercise I have to start with the sump, and see what clearance I can achieve to the front diff. This could mean I can actually do a suspension drop.

[Wooky]

When you tried the coil over leaf before did you use the same length leaf springs as you have now?
My gut feel says that a lot of what you are having problems with is a result of the shackle angle.

I have never tried a spring over leaf system before but would think that a panhard rod and track bar would almost be an essential part of the system as the leaf pack will be very soft.

There is a lot more info and on-line resources on the net regarding linked suspension as most of the buggy and crawler builders go that way.
I like leaf springs for their simplicity and maybe I have just been lucky but never really had any issues with modifying a leaf sprung vehicle.

[david bfreesani]

You can’t convert for R15k.

The expensive stuff has been purchased and donated and already installed. Its now just the fixing/attachment details that need to be sorted out.

I am not including nice new tyres and fancy shocks as I have enough of these laying around that can be made to work for now.

My most expensive things to do is extend one propshaft by 120mm for drive to the front diff. DOM pipe and heims, or new springs, depending on the way forward I decide on.

Small niggles like getting a gear lever to connect to the second TC is not even on the list of expenses. That we build from scraps as we go.

The critical and time consuming things is whats been frustrating everybody. I had to cut out two of the three main chassis crossmembers to make things fit. That had to be designed and replaced around the second TC and be strong enough to take over the job of the Nissan members I cut out to make sure the chassis integrity was maintained.

I think I , along with one or two of my engineering clients who have looked at whats been done, have over engineered this with 5mm steel members and braces. After the skid plate has been added, that thing will be way stronger than it was when it came out the factory. I'm adding a lot of weight, but strength is of more importance to me.

Still very much work in progress with a few pieces of steel, both from side to side and from front to back that still needs to go in.

I think the only concern you could really have with this "death trap", is the handling issues, and this is what I am trying to sort out with this thread. I was hoping we had more technically, and possibly hardcore 4x4ers here, than the bunch of keyboard worriers on the other side, that can help with this project.

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[ThysleRoux]

David, chat to Sakkie van Staden about the conversion to coils - he built a long arm system for his WJ from scratch and it seems to work just fine.

What Neil does not understand is that some of us actually like to fiddle around with this shit and that we sometimes overcomplicate matters

[david bfreesani]

David, chat to Sakkie van Staden about the conversion to coils - he built a long arm system for his WJ from scratch and it seems to work just fine.

What Neil does not understand is that some of us actually like to fiddle around with this shit and that we sometimes overcomplicate matters

That's an understatement. Look, I'm always scared to redesign what engineers did at the factory and which probably underwent a battery of testing which I could never submit it too. So I compensate with Overkill Engineering. I believe bigger and heavier is better. My lack of welding skills gets me me doing "3D welding". So where you really only need a 4mm bead for a 4mm steel plate weld, I do a dozen passes and piss all the professional welders off because a lay down 10 times more material that is needed. People think they are criticizing me when they say "this welding looks like it belongs on a truck", I take it as a compliment Rather safe than sorry I say, so a lot of this stuff is extra heavy duty.

I think Sakkie and I have chatted on the forum, and is one of the people that has confirmed that a 3 link is the better way to go. As I said, I have been putting my figures of the Sani into a 3 link calculator, and the results don't look bad at all. I get fairly good anti squat and roll center figures that should suite the Sani with it's big lift. I have even worked it out on 33" and 35" tyres.

[ThysleRoux]

David, we reason exactly the same - everything I build ends up being completely over the top, as far as material and welding/attachment, etc. is concerned. As you say, rather safe than sorry!

[grips]

David I think I have said what is needed to be said on your project on an other forum.

I have done my share of conversions. To me nothing is thumb suck. You need to start with OEM caster settings for the specific diff.
Only accurate way is to strip of the hubs and use the kingpin holes as reference for setting caster. I rather leaf the spring perches unwelded or position the diff with leafs attached. Supporting the diff in both cases with trestles and a jack under the pinion. Jack the pinion till the caster is in OEM spec.
Then I either weld the brackets to the chassis or weld the perches on the axles. This have never failed me.

Also build a jig to set up caster and chamber on SFA`s. Slowly but surely busy converting Dana 60 rear diff into a front diff with new axle tubes I have made up.

Pic of the jig.