Off Course 4x4

[Shane]

Thanks Anthony - makes perfect sense.

As I said, I was just interested as to why - and I understand that 4x4ing without lockers takes more skill.

Still enjoy your episodes though.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

[KurtG]

... there we go ...

The Defender TD5 didn't have any of that - no lockers, no TC etc. Same thing. With articulation, the wheels stay on the ground, it can transfer torque.

It far outperforms the independent Front suspension setups which have very little articulation to speak of - even when modified .

The Puma has Traction control, but it makes little difference.

On your last comment....

A Puma 90 with TC and an open diff TD5 (like the one Chas has, but in 90 form) on a severe cross axle that results in a front wheel and a diagonally opposed rear wheel losing traction.... which one will get through the obstacle first, assuming all other things being equal?

[Apocalypse]

... there we go ...

The Defender TD5 didn't have any of that - no lockers, no TC etc. Same thing. With articulation, the wheels stay on the ground, it can transfer torque.

It far outperforms the independent Front suspension setups which have very little articulation to speak of - even when modified .

The Puma has Traction control, but it makes little difference.

On your last comment....

A Puma 90 with TC and an open diff TD5 (like the one Chas has, but in 90 form) on a severe cross axle that results in a front wheel and a diagonally opposed rear wheel losing traction.... which one will get through the obstacle first, assuming all other things being equal?

If you are badly cross axled without at least Centre and one end locked you aren’t going anywhere quickly .

If you can Centre lock , you’ll get out by shifting some weight around so one end gets traction, and one end will gain traction soon enough.

The disco 2/ defender without center lock is actually far worse off - the traction control cannot apply brakes hard enough or long enough to the spinning wheel to get it out. Even if it shunts it forward enough to get one end with 2 wheels down , you are still trying to use one brake to transfer all that torque . TC /EBD doesn’t do much .

[KurtG]

https://youtu.be/CZ338UvMI8M

This was quite interesting, especially at 1m15s.

Am I correct in stating that the previous generation Jimny has no centre diff-lock?

[Apocalypse]

Not quite sure what your video is showing Kurt?

Both old and new Jimny are part time 4x4 - i.e. they have no centre diff. It's always locked centre in 4x4 mode. i.e. 2H,4H or 4L

The later models of the old Jimny have Traction Control in some markets as far as I know.

Presumably, the one in the video isn't one of those, which they seem to claim - it proves the point that Traction control doesn't help much at all. The older one still climbed out of 3 rollers.

Even a Fortuner would get out of those with difflock . The drag on the differential gears would provide sufficient reactionary force to transfer some torque to the one non spinning wheel - enough to push the vehicle over what is, effectively a 10mm high obstacle.

A proper cross axle - where 2 wheels at opposite ends of the vehicle actually need to climb out of a hole along with the hanging wheels - you need either articulation (so there is no hanging wheel) or diff locks.

Traction Control will not get you out.

[KurtG]

Clearly I know nothing of these things

I thought it was clear from the video that the situation of two wheels hanging in the air (simulated here, of course), the vehicle with the TC (the newer Jimny) got out, whereas the completely open diff older generation Jimny could not get out.

SaxJ would be able to tell us, he’s owned both of these models.

[Apocalypse]

Clearly I know nothing of these things

I thought it was clear from the video that the situation of two wheels hanging in the air (simulated here, of course), the vehicle with the TC (the newer Jimny) got out, whereas the completely open diff older generation Jimny could not get out.

SaxJ would be able to tell us, he’s owned both of these models.

yeah, that was a bit confusing as they did the same test twice with the old Jimny and the second time it popped out easily, but the first time it just sat there.

Those silly little rollers don't take much to climb out of.

You can achieve much the same effect as EBD by putting some light pressure on the brake pedal while giving it gas - the bit of drag on the spinning wheel will transfer sufficient torque to the other wheel and pop it out. Maybe thats what he did the second time (learnt to drive)

[Saxj]

From 2012 in other markets the Jimny had traction control. On the old Jimny the traction control only worked in low range. If you look in the lower left corner, you will see what test they are doing e.g. 2 wheels on the same side on rollers in 4H, or 3 wheels on rollers in 4L.

[Apocalypse]

From 2012 in other markets the Jimny had traction control. On the old Jimny the traction control only worked in low range. If you look in the lower left corner, you will see what test they are doing e.g. 2 wheels on the same side on rollers in 4H, or 3 wheels on rollers in 4L.

ah, okay, saw the note.

Weird that it only works in 4L? usually thats when most aids turn off.

so in SA it had no TC / ABS at all?

[Chris Stoffel]

I know very little about most things, but, the other day I parked my New Jimny with the 2 left wheels on the tar road and the two right wheels on 30cm deep wind blown beach sand. Not in 4x4. And I drove out of the sand. I could hear the traction control getting activated. So I think it works?
There are about 47523 and eleventy videos of Jimnies on obstacles and the traction control seems to work well.

[Mad Manny]

When SAXJ first got his Jimny Sierra (1500) we went to Base lake.
There is a steep-ish climb with severe cross axles.

After completing the obstacle (with theuseof Fearless' awesome Diff Lock) I walked down to watch the others.
As I stood there watching I noticed the guys with Diff Lock did it easily.

Then came SAXJ, halfway up the obstacle, his rear right wheel went into a gully, lifting his front left wheel so that I was looking straight at it, level with my head, 500mm from where I stood.
He was now in the perfect cross axle: front left in the air & rear right in this ditch with little down force.
SAXJ's momentum stopped as the the two wheels with no grip just turned.
But he just pressed on, I remember thinking "What he doing? He needs to roll back & choose a better line!"
But then that AllGrip Traction Control kicked in, the two turning wheels jerked to a stop.
Torque transferred to the wheels with grip & he moved forward, the wheel in the air came to ground gently as he drove out.

It was impressive to see the TC operate - SAXJ did exactly the right thing to get it to kick in.

Too many Noobs tap off exactly as the TC needs you to press on, causing the TC to back off.

[KurtG]

Manny, I thought you hated TC and were a non-believer in its abilities.... we live in strange times

[HenriSteyn]

Manny, I thought you hated TC and were a non-believer in its abilities.... we live in strange times

If Manny can change, there is hope for us all....

[Mad Manny]

Traction Control is, as I have always said "...like having drunk sitting next to you operating your diff lock".
It is inferior to Diff Lock in most 4x4 scenarios.
However, Victor (SAXJ) does know how to get the best from it.
Relax, the world changes gradually...

[KurtG]

Manny, pop quiz: how many TC only vehicles have you personally driven over/through a 4x4 obstacle?