The House Doctor

Off Course 4x4

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Mad Manny
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#46

Post by Mad Manny »

One.
A Ranger.
But I have closely observed many vehicles (Pajero's, Amaroks, Rangers etc) do the same obstacle first with TC & then Diff Lock.
"No one ever got stuck - in mid air!"

2010 Fortuner D-4D 4x4 'Fearless'
2006 Conqueror Conquest 'Gearless'

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Apocalypse
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#47

Post by Apocalypse »

HenriSteyn wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 9:03 pm
KurtG wrote:Manny, I thought you hated TC and were a non-believer in its abilities.... we live in strange times
If Manny can change, there is hope for us all....
Apparently he changes his underwear at least once a month.
Last edited by Apocalypse on Fri May 14, 2021 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Apocalypse
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#48

Post by Apocalypse »

Mad Manny wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 9:53 pm
One.
A Ranger.
But I have closely observed many vehicles (Pajero's, Amaroks, Rangers etc) do the same obstacle first with TC & then Diff Lock.
Neither are required if you have a proper 4x4 with sufficient flex to keep the wheels on the ground .

That’s why , for classes in off-road events that specifically prohibit lockers or any kind of lsd, the vehicles entered have dual live axles with coils .

That’s why vehicles like the wrangler Sahara , defender , patrol come without lockers, but the Bakkie based stuff and short arm independent stuff all does . They cock their leg on anything like The brak they are…
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KurtG
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#49

Post by KurtG »

The Sahara has TC
Flex is overrated

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#50

Post by Mad Manny »

Apoc is right, if you have unlimited wheel travel , Lockers and other traction aids are superfluous in many cases, obviously in mud or snow, a Locker would still help.
IFS therefore needs a Locker more than SFA (Live axle).

The problem is the guys cause kak with Lockers and this comes back at the manufacturers, so, once ABS had become common it was easy to fit TC (which is just ABS working in the opposite way).
The advantages of TC over DL is it's more idiot proof & is cheaper...
Ideally we (Off Roaders) should all drive SFA vehicles, but currently only the Labd Cruiser 70 series, the Jimny and the Wrangler is available with Solid axles, everyone else has gone IFS..
"No one ever got stuck - in mid air!"

2010 Fortuner D-4D 4x4 'Fearless'
2006 Conqueror Conquest 'Gearless'

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Apocalypse
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#51

Post by Apocalypse »

KurtG wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:58 am
The Sahara has TC
The post was a question about why a live axle vehicle doesn't use it's lockers....

yes, the JK and JL Sahara has TC and EBD . but only because the bits are there anyway for onroad use. I don't think you can buy a car thats available in Europe or the USA without the whole electronic nanny shebang. the TJ Sahara doesn't, and doesn't have lockers either.

it's useful, but you rarely need it.

Where lesser vehicle are difflocked and kakking off with wheels off the ground, a decent live axle vehicle won't have cocked a leg and none of the traction aids will have engaged

A few years back we did one of those group trails where the guys get very excited about little bumps that are slightly higher than a kerb.

I watched the IFS specials not getting up the one climb after multiple attempts with every knob lever and button engaged and disengaged , several took the escape route... I did it myself and thought, well, to be fair, I do seem to be struggling more than I expected, I'm wheel spinning more than I imagined I would...

I was still in 2H....
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Saxj
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#52

Post by Saxj »

Apocalypse wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 5:43 pm
Saxj wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 4:57 pm
From 2012 in other markets the Jimny had traction control. On the old Jimny the traction control only worked in low range. If you look in the lower left corner, you will see what test they are doing e.g. 2 wheels on the same side on rollers in 4H, or 3 wheels on rollers in 4L.
ah, okay, saw the note.

Weird that it only works in 4L? usually thats when most aids turn off.

so in SA it had no TC / ABS at all?
Basic ABS, in fact there was only one brake line to the rear of the car.

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Apocalypse
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#53

Post by Apocalypse »

Saxj wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 2:55 pm
Apocalypse wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 5:43 pm
Saxj wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 4:57 pm
From 2012 in other markets the Jimny had traction control. On the old Jimny the traction control only worked in low range. If you look in the lower left corner, you will see what test they are doing e.g. 2 wheels on the same side on rollers in 4H, or 3 wheels on rollers in 4L.
ah, okay, saw the note.

Weird that it only works in 4L? usually thats when most aids turn off.

so in SA it had no TC / ABS at all?
Basic ABS, in fact there was only one brake line to the rear of the car.
thats a pretty primitive ABS 🤣

Years ago when only top end vehicles had ABS and Traction control, a client took his 993 to the AA to test it was all working properly after the repair.

Pretty pointless exercise at the best of times, the inspectors were clueless chumps.

Anyway, he marked up serious brake shudder and inefficient operation on the report.

Client came back moaning, we took it for a spin. No brake shudder. brakes are working perfectly. Asked client if he thought it had brake shudder. no, but the AA man says it has, so we must fix. We phone him, no, it's only when you drive it hard.

Chucked client in passenger seat, took it for a serious spin. threw it around plenty, got the brakes steaming, fokol shudder. Client was whimpering a bit by now, so we drive the AA place to ask the guy.

He explains that when you get it up to speed and you STAMP on the brake it shudders really badly and the wheels won't lock up like they should....

sigh.
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#54

Post by BushWacker »

Apocalypse wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 12:28 pm
KurtG wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:58 am
The Sahara has TC
The post was a question about why a live axle vehicle doesn't use it's lockers....

yes, the JK and JL Sahara has TC and EBD . but only because the bits are there anyway for onroad use. I don't think you can buy a car thats available in Europe or the USA without the whole electronic nanny shebang. the TJ Sahara doesn't, and doesn't have lockers either.

it's useful, but you rarely need it.

Where lesser vehicle are difflocked and kakking off with wheels off the ground, a decent live axle vehicle won't have cocked a leg and none of the traction aids will have engaged

A few years back we did one of those group trails where the guys get very excited about little bumps that are slightly higher than a kerb.

I watched the IFS specials not getting up the one climb after multiple attempts with every knob lever and button engaged and disengaged , several took the escape route... I did it myself and thought, well, to be fair, I do seem to be struggling more than I expected, I'm wheel spinning more than I imagined I would...

I was still in 2H....
The suspension and 'fulcruming' limits of not only
the front but also the rear axle is crucial to maintaining traction and its evident in the different Landies.
My RR Classic can have the front left wheel jacked up
76cm from level ground and , at the same time the rear right wheel also jackedup 76cm before the other diagonal wheels start losing traction... and it only has 15inch tyres
and is much lower clearance than my 130 Defender.
Both have wish-bone style A-frames at the back with a
ball joint fulcrum. The self-levelling unit on the classic doesnt have any effect on the flex.
My 88 Series 3 on the other hand seems to just anchor and locate the back axle via the leaf springs and inclined shocks and it has two straps (!) to limit excessive drop of the axle ! ( and no radial arms)
The Disco 2 on the other hand has, I think, yet another
set-up that must be influential iro axle flex and travel.

The ' Land Rover 110' was a boxy Defender style follow-on to the RRC but shared the same chassis suspension set-up as did the Disco 1 so its surprising they opted to change the D2s rear configuration.
Attachments
Disco 2 set-up ...
Disco 2 set-up ...
Defender A-frame set-up ...
Defender A-frame set-up ...
Series 3 ( straps are brown )
Series 3 ( straps are brown )
... Famous Fiver VoorLoper ...
... Veni Vidi Vici ...

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Apocalypse
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#55

Post by Apocalypse »

BushWacker wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:01 am
Apocalypse wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 12:28 pm
KurtG wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:58 am
The Sahara has TC
The post was a question about why a live axle vehicle doesn't use it's lockers....

yes, the JK and JL Sahara has TC and EBD . but only because the bits are there anyway for onroad use. I don't think you can buy a car thats available in Europe or the USA without the whole electronic nanny shebang. the TJ Sahara doesn't, and doesn't have lockers either.

it's useful, but you rarely need it.

Where lesser vehicle are difflocked and kakking off with wheels off the ground, a decent live axle vehicle won't have cocked a leg and none of the traction aids will have engaged

A few years back we did one of those group trails where the guys get very excited about little bumps that are slightly higher than a kerb.

I watched the IFS specials not getting up the one climb after multiple attempts with every knob lever and button engaged and disengaged , several took the escape route... I did it myself and thought, well, to be fair, I do seem to be struggling more than I expected, I'm wheel spinning more than I imagined I would...

I was still in 2H....
The suspension and 'fulcruming' limits of not only
the front but also the rear axle is crucial to maintaining traction and its evident in the different Landies.
My RR Classic can have the front left wheel jacked up
76cm from level ground and , at the same time the rear right wheel also jackedup 76cm before the other diagonal wheels start losing traction... and it only has 15inch tyres
and is much lower clearance than my 130 Defender.
Both have wish-bone style A-frames at the back with a
ball joint fulcrum. The self-levelling unit on the classic doesnt have any effect on the flex.
My 88 Series 3 on the other hand seems to just anchor and locate the back axle via the leaf springs and inclined shocks and it has two straps (!) to limit excessive drop of the axle ! ( and no radial arms)
The Disco 2 on the other hand has, I think, yet another
set-up that must be influential iro axle flex and travel.

The ' Land Rover 110' was a boxy Defender style follow-on to the RRC but shared the same chassis suspension set-up as did the Disco 1 so its surprising they opted to change the D2s rear configuration.


The Range Rover Classic, the (real) Defenders , the Disco 1 were all the same chassis and running gear (with varying engines and diffs over the years) . The D90 was 90", RRC and Disco1 were 100" , and obviously the 110", 130" and 150"

The Land Rover series were classic leaf sprung vehciles with the leaves acting as spring, roll bar, longitudinal and transverse location 🤣

and the D2 was improved with a rear Watts Linkage instead of the A frame rear set up, which dropped the geometric roll centre (the A frame roll centre is at the ball joint, above the diff, the Watts in the Watts linkage centre on the wheel centre line) which gave a lot more space for the body, and improved handling considerably!
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