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All about Batteries
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:47 pm
by Mad Manny
Introduction:
In the good old days before the war life was simple: You got those round (or square) AAA, AA or D etc batteries from Panasonic or EverReady.
These were disposable.
The you had Lead Acid battery to start your car.
Simple.
Then the world changed & we got cell phone batteries & Deep Cycle batteries & rechargeable batteries & Ni-Cad & then Li-On batteries.
No longer simple.
But this Thread is about the batteries we as Outdoorsmen (& women) care about.
We used to have 3:
Cranking Lead Acid - to start your 4x4
Deep Cycle Lead Acid - for guys who don't know you can't deep discharge anyway (*more on this later)
High Cycle Lead Acid - like Deep Cycle - but better.
Now we get Lithium Phospate batteries, these replace the Deep Cycle & High Cycle batteries. (but not really the cranking battery).
These are called LiFePO (I thought it was Life PO 
).
I'd like to discuss using these instead of Deep or High Cycle batteries...
Re: All about Batteries
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:47 pm
by Mad Manny
I did some research on these Li Fe PO batteries.
They are about half the weight
They can take a deeper discharge.
They have better Thermal efficiency.
They can recharge faster.
They give a 'truer' Ah output.
They last longer.
Etc...
There is barely a category where they don't knock the pants off an old Flooded Lead Acid/AGM battery.
But the one category where they do perform poorly is upfront price.
Watching Aussie 4x4 shows (including ASPW's rather good episode on the LiFePO battery) & then watching some really good YouTube channels I noticed that these batteries, in those countries, are 2 - 3 x the price of the average AGM/Flooded Lead Acid.
Here in good ol' South Africa choice is rather limited & the Lithium Iron batteries seem to be 3 - 4 x the price (as opposed to 2 - 3 x).
Question, other than price, is there any reason why you won't, on replacement, not change your camping power battery from Lead Acid to LiFePO ?
Re: All about Batteries
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:33 pm
by Wave
Purely a price thing, when I was replacing my 9 year old Delkor 105ah Deep Cycles in my trailer, I decided to go for Deltec 105ah High Cycles @ R1300 ea it was a good price, the fancy equivalent was R10 000, so how many Deltec flooded High Cycles can I buy for R10 000? I would have had to fork out R20K for 2 batteries...
Re: All about Batteries
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:50 pm
by HenriSteyn
Wave has summed it up. Its all In the price.
The new technology should hopefully become cheaper as volumes pick up.
Downside is currently most of the Lithium comes from DRC whose mining methods are downright atrocious because of child labour etc. Battery manufacturers are avoiding those suppliers and prices accordingly are going to remain high for some time.
Cheers
Re: All about Batteries
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:02 pm
by BushWacker
I was actually thinking about this today, I will stay with AGMs -
no liquid crystal,
no lithium what ever,
or whatever..
For cranking, campsite and even home solar.
Move to synergy & uniformity,
forget the fashion(s) & trends untill it/they're well proven.
All about Batteries
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:03 am
by KurtG
BushWacker wrote:I was actually thinking about this today, I will stay with AGMs -
no liquid crystal,
no lithium what ever,
or whatever..
For cranking, campsite and even home solar.
Move to synergy & uniformity,
forget the fashion(s) & trends untill it/they're well proven.
In summary: “I can’t afford the new shit”
Re: All about Batteries
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:06 am
by Mad Manny
Stolen from LinkedIN
Most people confuse Lithium ION for Lithium IRON (hence the "Fe" in the name). These are not interchangeable terms.
LiFePO4 batteries are a newer technology and do come with a higher price tag; but not in vain.
The benefits ultimately pay for themselves just in marketability to the consumer and life span.
Top SIX benefits of LiFePO4 batteries and how they compare to other technologies on the market:
1. Longer Life Cycle - Up to 20x longer cycle life and 5x longer float life than lead acid battery. 2x Longer cycle life than Lithium-ion batteries.
2. Lighter Weight - About 40-60% of the weight of a comparable lead acid battery
3. Drop - in Replacement - fitted into a VRLA plastic case to easily replace any existing SLA batteries without needing to change a thing. Even charges with an existing SLA charger!
4. Higher Power - Delivers twice the power of a lead acid battery, higher discharge rate, all while maintaining high energy capacity. They are also much better in high power discharge applications than Lithium-ion batteries.
5. Wider Temperature Range - -20°C ~ 60°C
6. Superior Safety - LiFePO4 chemistry eliminates risk of explosion or combustion due to high impact, overcharging, or short circuiting. Safer than both SLA batteries and Lithium-ion batteries.
Re: All about Batteries
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:07 am
by Mad Manny
Thanks for the replies so far.
Regarding 'Ge'Off's reply (the best here so far), I did some checking:
TWO of the Deltec 105ah High Cycle he bought will now cost R2500ea = R5000.00
A LiFePO4 will cost around R11000.
But this is NOT 4x asyou'd suspect.
The Lead Acid batteries can't be run down below 50%, so his two 105A will only half that.
The LiFePO4 will give 100%, so, cost wise, you are comparing R5000 to R11000 - just over double.
If you then take into account that 2 Lead Acids take double the space & weigh about 60kg vs the LiFePO4's 11 - 16kg.
Then add to that the longer life (lead acid seldom makes it much past 5 or 6 years & liFePO will easily do double that.
Over a10 year period there is only minimal monetary difference between LiFePO & Lead Acid.
Re: All about Batteries
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:20 am
by grips
Whatever keeps the beer cold.
There are so many new revolutionary developments around batteries maybe one should hang in there another year or two before spending hard earned
cash.
LiFePO4 might be dated already.
Re: All about Batteries
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:25 pm
by BushWacker
... not sure if LiFePO batteries have
even been around 5 or 6 years yet ...
so their normal 'Life' probly just
a salesman's estimate ...
( Wooky ... may be interested to know
its just a cathodic material from Olivine)
Re: All about Batteries
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:35 pm
by BushWacker
KurtG wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:03 am
In summary: “I can’t afford the new shit”
Yes, I don't want to make some Jerk rich by paying a fortune for his shit ...
Re: All about Batteries
Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:55 am
by Mad Manny
In response to the last few comments:
You would only be looking at batteries if you needed a battery.
If you are replacing a Lead Acid battery, then you need to decide;
* Stick with Flooded Lead Acid (High Cycle or, if you are silly, Deep Cycle)
* Pay more & go AGM.
* Pay 3 x more than Flooded Lead Acid & go LiFePO4
Personally, if my (rather disappointing), Varta comes up for replacement & I have the extra money (+/-R7500) spare, at the time, I'd go LiFePO for the following reasons:
1. My tow ball weight is too high - dropping it by 10kg+ would be nice.
2. Float Charging - (sites with no power) you struggle to get Lead Acid past 80% charge as it enters float charging & gradually creeps up, but then the sun goes down.
3. Usable capacity - a lead acid only gives you half it's capacity as you can't drop below 50%, if that, LiFePO gives you closer to 100%.
On the Richtersveld trip, with no power for 6 days & 39*C daily highs, Mike Nel's Foldable Solar Panel struggled to keep my fridge running.
Had I had a LiFePO, those 5 days would have been a lot easier.
But R7500 is a chunk of change...
Re: All about Batteries
Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:59 pm
by LesseW
Are you on LinkedIn??? Job hunting?
Re: All about Batteries
Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:41 pm
by HenriSteyn
Muchas moola!
Re: All about Batteries
Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:25 am
by BushWacker
... is there life after death ... ??
... should I use a LifePo4 my old Landy ?